Show Notes

Leadership, with Steve Vamos

 

In this episode of the Service Game podcast, host Julie Krieger welcomes Steve Vamos, former CEO of Xero and esteemed leader in technology and transformation. Steve shares insights from his extensive leadership experience across global companies like Apple, IBM, and Microsoft, as well as his involvement in not-for-profits. He emphasises the importance of people-first leadership, the role of belief in organisational success, and the critical need for soft skills and continuous learning. Steve also discusses his new book 'Through Shifts and Shocks,' which combines practical guidance with a focus on the human element of business and leadership. The episode delves into topics such as KPIs, DEI, team performance, and the nuanced roles of boards and managers, offering valuable takeaways for leaders at all levels.

 

00:00 Introduction to the Episode

00:07 Meet Steve Vamos: Leadership Giant

02:00 Julie's Background and Podcast Mission

04:37 Steve Vamos on Leadership and Change

05:14 Leadership Skills: Instinct vs. Learning

10:00 The Role of Belief in Leadership

12:19 Aligning Strategy in Big vs. Small Organisations

14:03 The Importance of KPIs and OKRs

16:25 Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in Leadership

23:09 Handling Fear and Mistakes in Leadership

25:20 Embracing Mistakes in Innovation

26:16 The Role of Boards in Leadership

29:50 Challenges in Not-for-Profit Boards

33:18 Importance of Team Performance

37:00 Selecting and Supporting CEOs

39:53 Managing Mindset for Effective Leadership

42:23 Future Plans and Reflections

47:23 Conclusion and Resources

Links:

Steve's book:

https://www.amazon.com.au/Through-Shifts-Shocks-Lessons-Technology/dp/139429350X

Steve's website:

https://stevevamos.com

Steve's Ted Talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQUt-EKwa94

 

www.onsomble.com.au

Show transcript

Ep 12: Leadership, with Steve Vamos

 [00:00:00]

Hey, it's Julie Krieger here, your host, and today, oh wow. Are you in for a treat? Because joining me is none other than Steve Vamos a true giant in the world of leadership, technology, and transformation. If you don't already know the name, let me catch you up. Steve is the former CEO of Xero,

where he led the global expansion of one of the world's now most loved cloud accounting platforms. And before that, well, he just casually held senior executive roles at Apple Ninemsn and IBM. And of course he was the managing director of Microsoft Australia, where he spearheaded significant organisational change and cultural renewal.

We are talking about a leader who's helped shape the digital landscape. Across three decades and multiple continents. Steve has also served on the boards of high profile organisations, including [00:01:00] Telstra, Fletcher Building Medibank and David Jones, and he's been an advisor to startups and scale UPS across the globe.

Steve founded the Society for Knowledge Economics and the Cancer Charity Ray of Hope. He's a renowned speaker, including his fabulous TEDx Talk. Digital disruption is a human thing, and he's just released his first book through shifts and shocks more on that in the episode. But what makes Steve. Such a standout isn't just his amazing cv, it's his belief that leadership is about people first.

He's passionate about culture, communication, and helping leaders unlock potential, not just in their organisations, but in themselves and in their teams. So whether you are running a small not-for-profit, leading a giant team, or you are just passionate about doing business in a better way, get ready to take notes because this episode, it's pure gold.

Let's [00:02:00] get into it.

Speaker 7: Welcome to the Service Game podcast. Brought to you by Onsomble. I'm your host, Julie Krieger. For the past 14 years, I've been helping associations to grow and thrive, establishing systems, writing policies and procedures, implementing membership and sponsorship. Strategies, setting up operations, undertaking complete governance, restructures, developing strategies, and advising CEOs, presidents, and boards.

I am driven to support the hardworking people who give their time, heart and soul in the service of their members and in the pursuit of the greater good. Join me as we delve deep into this innovative, creative, values-based and mission-driven thing. I call the service game. Let's get going with today's episode.

Speaker: welcome Steve Vamos and thank you [00:03:00] so much for joining me. I'm so excited to have you here as my guest.

Speaker 2: thanks for having, thank you for having me, Julie.

It's great to see you and. Reconnect and looking forward to the chat.

Speaker: me too. Very much. Firstly, I wanted to say congratulations on the launch of your book through shifts and shocks, lessons from the frontline of technology and change.

 Out now, by the way, on Amazon and through all good books, sellers.

And as you can see, I've really enjoyed it. I've gone through, I've done some markups and I've put some tabs in there for future reference.

I've read a lot of business books, but this one is unique in that it delivers in spades on the practical elements. In fact, the final section is basically a playbook with resources that are ready to use in real life, but it equally emphasizes the human element of business and leadership. There's a genuine sense of your focus on kindness and humanity throughout this book.

So congratulations. It's a [00:04:00] great rate.

Speaker 2: Thanks, Julie. I really appreciate you saying that and that that's what I intended. I intended the book not to, just to be, you know, the why and the what, but also the how because the how is really the challenging part.

You know, why we do things and what we're trying to do, you know, that's usually pretty self-evident. But how, how we do those things that are most important in particular to deal with change in our business and in our life is. More what I was hoping to try and pass on.

Speaker: Yeah. Perfect. And I think you've, you've done that incredibly well.

So, to talk about leadership, simple question, but maybe not such a simple answer. How do you simply define leadership?

Speaker 2: Well, I think on this one I can be pretty straightforward. I mean, leadership is all about change. There is no great leader who didn't change something. I always look at great leadership and leadership being the [00:05:00] ability to see opportunities to make things better and to collaborate with others, to activate that vision of how things can be better.

That's what it is to me.

Speaker: And did you instinctively know how to lead, or did you instinctively at least know how to learn how to lead?

Speaker 2: Look, I have learned so much from others, from mistakes from. Training and development from reading that there's no way that just instinct would've got me to where I am.

I think, you know, even my appreciation for the human aspect of organisations of change, which I do think is stronger than many. I have to say comes from the influence of my father. So there's really no aspect of who I am as a leader today. That [00:06:00] didn't come from the influence of family, friends, and also work associates over many years.

So instinct, I don't know. I, I'm not sure. I probably rate nurture over nature when it comes to developing leaders, but there are some things about personalities and we know that with our children mm-hmm. That you are born in a particular way. And the way I've been, I guess the way I, I guess I've never found some things really difficult that maybe others do.

So, for example seeing where people are going off the rails and. Being able to help them get back on track is something that I've done since I was a school kid. So there must be something there that's instinctive, but but largely influence.

Speaker: I take all of those points and I think it's the learn how to lead well part that's maybe there's an element of instinct in that, in being able to [00:07:00] observe and then do something with the information that you do observe.

Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, when they say, well, only some people can be leaders, I think everyone can lead. And that comes down to the definition, which is seeing an opportunity to make things better and activating others to do that. But I think sometimes it gets, leadership gets confused with management. And just because you, you know, I think we all have leadership capability, whether we're an individual or we're a CEO.

And I think sometimes we confuse management with leadership. So not everybody's there to become a CEO or an organisational leader or manager, but everybody has a capacity to improve things around them if they choose to.

Speaker: Yeah, that's a really good distinction and I was gonna ask you about that, whether anyone can be a good leader and can

The soft skills that are required to do that. Well, and, and I guess to bring in that humanity element can that be taught to people? Can you encourage that out of others?

Speaker 2: Well, I think that the soft [00:08:00] skills are important and they are about being taught in many ways. I mean right from childhood, your parents will talk to you about the right way to speak to people the right way to ask questions.

The right attitude to have towards yourself and your prayer. I was certainly taught humility by my father who was always quick to reset me if I was getting too carried away with myself for, for any other reason. But there were other people as well, but I'll give you a good example. Just little things you can learn about along the way.

And you know, I was in sales training where I was taught. Feel, felt found, which is a, a methodology for dealing with objections and disagreement. And it goes along the lines of, look, you know, I understand how you feel, so you show empathy. And other people have felt that way too. And what they found was [00:09:00] so in this context, it sounds a bit, you know, a bit, let's say inauthentic, but the reality is that, there are systems and ways of interacting that can help you develop your soft skills.

Speaker: I love that feel, felt, found. I haven't heard that one before. That's great.

 

Speaker: you've held lots of leadership positions, executive leadership in global companies.

You've worked in some enormous organisations, but you've also founded and led some small scale not-for-profit organisations. Has your experience in the latter added to your big business leadership skillset and I guess vice versa?

Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. It's funny because I've never really seen a big difference between the little organisations I've been involved with and the big ones.

1. I think, maybe the zeros on the report are the main things that are different, you know, the financial reporting and the scale of what you're [00:10:00] working with. But one of the big things I've learned from smaller organisations and working with founders is how powerful and important belief is.

So I used to think that whenever you get an athlete on, you know, being interviewed about winning a medal or whatever, they go, you know, I believed, and you know, it really. It made the difference and, follow your beliefs if you believe you can do anything. And I've gone from a bit of a cynic on that one to absolutely a believer that, that a belief is the beginning of and the fundamental currency of organisations and of everything that we try and do in them and really the role of leadership is to share that belief and.

Also be able to give it a context that's meaningful for people. So the smaller an organisation is, the more you really see what matters. The bigger an organisation gets, the more you have to pay attention to how what really [00:11:00] matters touches people more indirectly than directly. And what really matters is very much.

It's about giving people a sense of purpose. It's about providing clarity, about making sure they're aligned and they're supported in the roles that they they're doing. And what happens sometimes in big organisations is that's forgotten a little bit.

So what happens either in a small one, you're in a room and you say, Hey, this is what we're gonna do. You go, yeah, and this is what's most important. Yeah, let's do it. Then in a big organisation, the executives at the top go, yeah, you know, this is what we're gonna do and yeah, let's go and do it. And then people, four, five levels down go, what, where, how.

And so I think it's really the, how that is the biggest difference between the two. Because the how in a small organisation is we talk about it, the how in a larger organisation is translating. Those [00:12:00] important things through management layer by layer across the organisation. So it lands coherently with every employee, every person on the team.

And that's the alignment challenge of a big organisation, which is less challenging for a small organisation.

Speaker: Yeah, exactly. You talk a lot about that process of alignment in the book. And I've never really. Heard it phrased in the way that you have done and you talk about the sort of trickle down process of setting from strategy right through to, you know, individual goals all the way through departments and, everything else in between.

And I guess that's a, a much more complex proposition in a larger organisation.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and Julia, I'm talking about it more for the big change initiatives than I am. Everything that everybody's doing day to day. So this notion of cascading down layer by layer actions and commitments is, is really [00:13:00] related to the things you wanna do differently.

Not so much the things you're doing every day, even though functionally that makes sense. But from a CEO perspective, you've gotta trust your executives and their management teams to be able to do that. But what you can't leave to them is the cascade and the coordination. Of the most challenging strategic programs for change because they are usually cross-functional.

And that's why you really need to, as a CEO, care about how things land with individuals, not just the narrative that is the easy part. Around why things need to change and, and what's gonna change.

 

Speaker: Can I touch just briefly on KPIs, because I feel like the use of KPIs is a somewhat contentious prospect, and, I've read various things about OKRs and KPIs and I'm interested in your take on their place in the workplace, particularly in a smaller [00:14:00] organisation, how you use them.

Well.

Speaker 2: Yeah, well look, first of all, before we dive into that, Julia, I think that the thing that goes wrong, the reason why we are even having this conversation is a KPIs and oks get a bad name when they're bad once. So what happens is, you know, an organisation sets KPIs and gives everybody a goal, and if that goal doesn't make sense or isn't in the long-term interests.

People will blame KPIs for poor behavior or the wrong thing happening. But KPIs and OKRs, they're just fundamentally important. They just have to be the right ones, and they have to be applied sensibly. I mean, for example, and we might talk about this a little later, diversity, equity, and inclusion. No one on the planet would argue that we shouldn't be putting effort into developing every human.

We can [00:15:00] in our workplace and more broadly in our community, and that they all come from different backgrounds and there are different stages, and therefore we should understand their needs and cater to their needs. I don't think anyone would argue that, but when DEI becomes a target, a quota, a KPI, that is the wrong one.

That's when things go bad. But I'm shocked that. In the US particularly, people felt they had to give less qualified people jobs because of DEI targets. You know that, that's not what DEI should be. It's not a sustainable view, which is exactly why there's a backlash. You know, I've worked on teams and seen them become very diverse over time, and I've had an objective to see that happen.

But I never, ever put somebody in a job that they weren't qualified for. [00:16:00] So again, KPIs, OKRs, you don't shoot the messenger, you know, it's just that they've gotta be the right ones. They've gotta be smart ones. They can't be objectives that lead people to do silly things. And if things change, also management needs to be astute and aware enough to modify those KPIs on the journey.

If, if, if they need to.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Well since we're here talking about DEI. How do we handle the backlash? That seems to be rising up as a bit of a groundswell around the world at the moment. What have you seen and heard from some of the large tech companies in particular who seem to be leading the charge

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Look, I'm not sure what the reality is. You know, there's so much bluster around this. You know, the, the reality is that anyone with an extreme view on this is wrong. And the reality is somewhere, in a sensible middle ground, which is, yes, we can all agree that we should be [00:17:00] developing talent.

And yes, we should all recognize that some talent. It comes from a different place or hasn't had perhaps the same benefits and support. So let's make sure if we want all people in our communities and workplaces to contribute to their best, we should support them in the most sensible way. I just think the issue that we're talking about came from an extreme implementation that meant that people who were more qualified.

Somebody else clearly more qualified, missed out on a role because the hiring manager had a quota. You know, they had to meet the target, and I don't agree with quotas and hard targets for things that are subtle, complex and take time. So at zero we had objectives for diversity. But they weren't targets that the board said, Steve, you know, you will meet these targets or you'll be punished, or, you know, you'll miss out on your bonus.

It [00:18:00] was, this is our intention. What are the right things to do? And, and are we seeing results? And we did. And we did. And the other thing, thing it made us do was to think about, well, we can't fix it now. For example, there might be a layer of management in your organisation, which is not very well balanced in terms of diversity.

You're not gonna change that overnight. But what you need to do is say, let's make a plan over the next few years for how we develop the people at the next levels down to see more diversity there. So I think common sense just has to prevail. And unfortunately, many things that we talk about when we get into leadership, teamwork, and change, common sense is not common practice.

You know, and, and there's another thing I love saying, that simple things are often the hardest to do. So it's simple, the concept that we want representation of our communities in every aspect of life. That's a simple concept, but it's not necessarily easy to do.

Speaker: [00:19:00] Especially when some people have a vested interest in not changing and that can be a friction point.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how many people. Now we're absolutely flat against it. I think that and by the way, for organisations in Australia, I, I think it's tough if you are being held hostage for some reason, universities and the way that money rolls from the US to universities, I, that would be a tough, tough situation.

You know, my view is be compliant, but don't compromise your values. So I would just run the same programs and rename them.

Don't use DEI just, so these are, you know, development programs for our people.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I recently had Sarah Abbott on as a guest.

She's the global head of de and I for Lion, the drinks company. And, she talks about the fact that those who are disparaging of it refer to DEI as didn't earn it.

Speaker 2: [00:20:00] Hmm. And unfortunately in the US because the pendulum swings in the American business culture are pretty serious. I'm not gonna argue that that didn't happen.

I mean, it probably did happen and shame on the managers who did it and shame on the people. Worse shame on the organisational leaders who did that. I mean, the last thing you do, the last thing you do in any hierarchical structure is just follow a dumb directive. You know, you just don't, you find a way.

Find a way,

Speaker: How do you differentiate your version of dumb from somebody else's? How do you know and trust that what you think is not dumb and what somebody else thinks might be?

Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's a great question. I think before you come to any conclusion, I always say talk to others who are [00:21:00] experiencing similar.

Talk to people who know more than you and then you can have confidence in your belief or your opinion. I mean, that's a danger of getting older and more experienced, is that in fact, you know, in terms of mindset, whenever I say something is stupid, that's new. Little voice in my head says, Steve, you've been wrong so often before.

Go and talk to people, learn more before you hold that opinion. So I do think that I say something is dumb with I guess the reverence for the need to really make sure you, you have checked your opinions with others and that you've studied the subject. And but I am talking about, you know, I had an experience at Apple where.

The corporation this, before Steve Jobs came back, they were doing something really dumb and they decided to create really [00:22:00] cheap computers that cost a lot of money, so they're gonna lose money selling them. And they did that for competitive reasons. And the team that I was working with in Asia Pacific, they were a really good, experienced bunch of people.

And we talked about it and we all agreed we're gonna stay focused on the things we're doing that we think work and we ignored. The corporate direction to buy all this product in and sell it. And so we saved ourselves from massive product write downs because we were small enough, fortunately at the time, to be able to ignore corporate direction.

But you gotta be very careful with that. I mean, I've challenged corporate direction often and then changed my mind when I was convinced that I was wrong. So, you know, I think that's that's probably how I look at at these things. There's never absolutes.

Speaker: Yeah, and that takes confidence and , self-confidence to be able to acknowledge a vulnerability.

, A lot of people don't have that capacity [00:23:00] or feel too scared in their work environment to admit a mind change, let alone something that they've done that's been proven to be incorrect.

Speaker 2: Well, you know, fear is a normal, natural human instinct, human reaction to change and things changing around us.

The problem is that that fear, which is a survival mechanism, which all of us would never want to get rid of, becomes fear of looking stupid, fear of offending people, fear of making mistakes, and a whole bunch of fears in the workplace that stifle change, and that's where fear needs to be recognized. And.

Leaders have to work over time to address the fact that if they don't make things feel safe, if they don't help people overcome their fears, or at least confront their fears in a thoughtful way, that change is gonna be stifled and their organisation's just not gonna evolve. So it's good that you [00:24:00] raise it.

And it's also one that. Needs to be recognized. And, and the reality is, once you call it and you talk about why people should be and would be afraid, it's in the open. And people really get drawn to the conversation. 'cause they say, okay, well these, these people understand me and how I'm feeling now I'm gonna listen to what they have to say.

And now there's a, there's something about change and fear and mistakes that I think is really important to understand. That is that mistakes are learning. You know when things are changing and I always say to people, there is nothing you are good at today. Absolutely nothing that you didn't get good at by making mistake after mistake after mistake till you got good at it.

So we can't create mistake averse cultures in organisations around the changes we're trying to make. I think that's really, really important one to, to capture in terms of the way you think and the way you behave as a manager or a leader. [00:25:00] Is you can turn that little fear thing on really easily. And once you do, your people are not gonna be people who perform to that potential that you believe they have.

Speaker: Yeah, the expression fail fast and fail early comes to mind.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: And then I guess move on and learn from it.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And I mean, it's just a fact of life. You're just not gonna get things right. First time.

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Speaker 2: And if you want people to innovate, to change things for the better. What I really recommend though, is get really clear about the areas in the organisation that are changing and where mistakes are gonna be okay.

But you don't really want your finance team messing up your financial reporting. That's not where mistakes are tolerated or expected.

Speaker 4: Yep.

Speaker 2: It's known. It's not changing. It's known. Things that are changing, you've gotta be able to talk about them and talk about the fact that there will be mistakes and let's give it a shot and learn [00:26:00] from them.

 

Speaker: To some extent we're talking about culture when we talk about this capacity for change and the fear environment and culture really is set at the top, including at board level. I wanted to touch on boards for a moment in the context of leadership. You've obviously served on quite a number of boards and some very large organisations, Telstra, Medibank, private, just to name a, a couple here in Australia and plenty of others.

I'm sure people, I think, readily understand leadership in the sense that their boss is their leader, or the boss's boss is the leader, but what a. About leadership in the context of the board?

Speaker 2: Yeah, well look, the board role is obviously a different role to management and it's there to govern the organisation on behalf of the key stakeholders, you know, for, for public companies.

That's the shareholders and [00:27:00] private companies Similarly, and then for not-for-profits, it's for whoever the stakeholders are that are behind that enterprise. Look, boards really do one thing that is most important, that is appoint the right leader and then to ensure that they're taking enough, paying enough attention to how that leader is operating to ensure that a healthy culture exists under that leader.

Boards do. Rely on a strong chair who coalesces all the different independent views and ideas into a healthy conversation and some form of conclusion and direction to management. Boards obviously have a stake in the strategy of the organisation. That's, that's a really important role. But boards shouldn't manage.

But by the same token, and there's this thing called the line between board and management that it's talked about. In my book, I write about the fact that sometimes that line [00:28:00] becomes a reason or a border or a boundary between a director and understanding what is really going on in the leadership team and the culture.

And my view is that a board director really needs to do their homework. They need to talk to. Stakeholders, external, internal. They need to talk to people in the organisation and they need to get a quantitative and qualitative view of the functioning of the leadership team, and in particular, how safe those leaders are to challenge the CEO.

So that's how I see boards playing is more, right, CEO write inspection and write visibility into the quality of the leadership team. And you know what? Julie, I really think that one of the biggest blind spots in all organisations is a performance of teams in those organisations. So we'd look at organisational performance, business performance, overall [00:29:00] performance.

We look at individual performance, but really those two things come about by people working in teams. And so team performance is really important. And in the book I talk about what I used to provide the zero board. As a transparent way into seeing the status and the health of the Zero leadership team, and I really recommend that any board director that's listening ought to really want to understand in a qualitative and quantitative way through survey what the people around that CEO or senior executive are experiencing and working with them.

Is it safe? Is it clarity? Are they aligned? Do they have the hard conversations? Do they make the tough choices now? That's what I think is really important

Speaker 5: in the role of boards.

Yeah, I agree. And looking at smaller, not-for-profit boards particularly, is a potentially very small team, [00:30:00] often just one person, an executive officer, or a CEO. And the boards definitely straddle a line between being a management board and a strategic board,

and that adds a layer of confusion. As the board seeks to tread that line, I guess, between, we'll tell them what we want to see for the organisation from a strategic point of view, and we'll manage risk and we'll do all of those things that are typically in the domain of the board and getting involved in the day-to-day nitty gritty.

You know, for example, we don't want to go to a certain hotel for our conference or. We want some sort of buy-in. In terms of the band that plays at the gala dinner, it's a difficult line for a lot of small, not-for-profit organisations to tread. Do you have any advice for those small companies around keeping that segregation or differentiation of [00:31:00] roles?

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really, really interesting one. Because, you know, particularly in the not-for-profit sector, a lot of it's powered by passion and that can be powered by the passion of a board director.

Who oversteps the mark and or extends their influence beyond what I think is maybe helpful. But again, that's where the chair comes in, the chair look and the CEO O because CEOs have to manage the board. The chair obviously facilitates and has an important role there, but you need the two of them.

I always say. If you've got a good chair and a good CEO, you're in great shape regardless of the challenges you face. If one of the two isn't up to the job, that's, you know, yellow flag, it's gonna be challenging. If both of them are a problem, it's a red flag and always say, get outta there. Right?

Speaker: run for the hills.

Speaker 2: It's, it's run for the hills. If you can't see change happening pretty soon. So I do think. Depending on which [00:32:00] role you're coming at, you do have to provide a mechanism of feedback for board directors where people are getting that honest feedback as to how they're positioning themselves and playing into their responsibilities.

So, yeah, it's a tricky one. And it's, it's often just very situational. Depends on the situation as to who, why and what's going on. But again, no one wants to work in dysfunction and unfortunately, dysfunction is a reality and it happens too often. So you know, it's up to the chair and the CEO between them to figure out how to sort that.

And so again, it's always good. Also get independent people in to facilitate, in a sense, a workshop. Around the kind of culture and behavior you want between the board and the management. And so in the book I've actually outlined a few different ways you can get to that. So there's a little tool tool in there, which is called creating the Team code.

And even though boards aren't really a team as such, you can actually put the board of [00:33:00] management in a room together and say, you know, what are the things that we want to represent? How we work together and what are the behaviors we want to make sure never I. Come to play and you get that independent facilitator to help you crystallize that into three to five, standards of behavior.

Speaker: Yeah, I love that. I love that code. That such a great concept and I love that discussion we were having about teams and the fact that we just don't tend to measure team performance at all. I've never seen that done other than from a budgetary point of view.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and it goes into another step where I'm pretty hardcore, which is about people leadership and the fact that organisations do, and they shouldn't do, but they do put people into roles who are not good people leaders and don't have an interest in becoming good.

And that's terrible. That is terrible. You need people, leaders who, who really enjoy the role and are committed to improving and developing in the role.

Speaker 4: Mm.

Speaker 2: It's a [00:34:00] critical link. And the idea of just promoting someone 'cause they're a good sales person or a good, good marketing person, or a good technical person into a management role is one of the most damaging things that happen in organisations.

My view is that, whilst that persists organisational performance will fall, sh team performance will fall short. And I'm not saying you don't compromise, you don't start tomorrow and fire the ones who, you know, I'm not saying anything silly like that. I'm just saying

Speaker 4: Yeah. Make

Speaker 2: it a priority.

Measure performance and have the conversation with those who aren't doing well as to whether they really want to be there.

I take that point, but I wonder then for people who maybe aren't natural leaders or who indeed have no interest in becoming leaders, leading people, but who nonetheless want to progress within their career and, you know, climb the corporate ladder, for example. They [00:35:00] have aspiration. They wanna grow and develop and evolve.

Invariably, that leads people at some point in their career journey. People, leadership, whether they want it or like it or not. So how do we cater to those sort of people? They wanna progress, but they don't want to lead people.

Speaker 2: Yeah. For a start, I encourage making sure your pay scales and don't force professionals out of doing what they're good at, into management.

So if they're good at a professional role that you value, then grade it increase the, the compensation for those that have more experience, more capability, more influence. So. That's one thing you can do to avoid that diving across into people leadership. For people who don't really wanna do it , I dunno, there's much that you can do other than making sure that they understand what they're getting into beforehand.

So find a way for them to perhaps as I did at IBM, go to an aspiring People leaders [00:36:00] course or go to a course that will give them a sense for what they're up for. And then once they do, take that jump, if it's just something you can't avoid, make sure they're getting a lot of feedback and, and help.

Look, none of us start out as a great people leader. I didn't, the first people manager role I had fortunately again, IBM, they forced us after six months to have formal feedback and my feedback was not positive. And then I started to realize that how I am as a people leader. He's better understood through the eyes of those who work with me.

So feedback is absolutely the most important thing. Plenty of it. Yeah. And very direct feedback because, but, you get to some point though, Julie, where if someone isn't gonna be good out and doesn't want to do it, you know, take them out. Take them

Speaker 6: out.

Speaker 2: Yep. And, and also, if there isn't career trajectory for people in your organisation, there's nothing wrong with discussing that with them.

And then helping them find their role, next role outside your organisation.

Speaker: Yeah, [00:37:00] yeah, absolutely. And I guess in the meantime, giving people a seat at a table that the relevant tables to share their expertise and help shape the, the sense of purpose in their own roles is, is probably something that gives people a great sense of achievement as opposed to necessarily just leading,

 

Speaker: you mentioned that one of the board's primary roles is in selecting A CEO with your mind on the smaller organisations, the startups, or the not-for-profits, what are the skills or attributes, if you like, of a CEO that you would look for outside of obviously the requisite skills for the role in question?

Are there generic kind of this attribute will make a good leader versus not.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I, I think there's one thing, see, because a small organisation, and you know, when I founded the society pH, knowledge Economics, which was a not-for-profit, I [00:38:00] mean, it was my belief and my energy that went into that organisation and how it was led.

And that happens for all small organisations and new businesses, startups. They're gonna be an incarnation of the person that's founding them or leading them. So the one attribute that matters most there, 'cause I'll assume they have vision, I'll assume they have passion and energy 'cause they're doing it.

The one, one feature that I would look for is coachability, and that means that the person is prepared to listen and on occasions demonstrates that it will change their mind because you can't be coachable and never have changed your mind about something. So I think that's the thing to look for, is that person gonna learn, listen and change as the journey demands it.

Speaker: And is it the board that will coach them?

Speaker 2: Well, I'm [00:39:00] not sure you can look to boards to coach you too much. Some board members can be helpful, but in terms of the board can certainly give you opinions and feedback and you should listen to that. They'll certainly be looking for that. But I think in terms of genuinely being coached I wouldn't look to the board for that.

I would actually look to getting some help from someone you respect outside or, you know, even people who work for you if you let them, will coach a bit.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. There's a lot of learning to be had within a team or within an organisation broadly, at every level.

 

Speaker: You spoke earlier about belief and the power of it.

I think it was Henry Ford, wasn't it, who said whether you believe you can or you can't, you are correct. I think you mentioned that in your book and I particularly love that one. Yeah. It's such a great quote. How do you manage your mindset set?

Speaker 5: Boy. That's a good question.

Speaker 2: Well, first of all, how I manage my mind [00:40:00] is about a whole range of things from trying to be healthy where sleep, eat not, don't drink too much.

Breathing breathing's great, but in the book I talk about. Mindset quite deeply. And for me it's about self-awareness and realizing that you aren't, and you don't need to bring the same mindset to every situation. Mindset depends. Depends on situation and in a changing situation, I try and stay self-aware enough to make sure I don't slip into the more comfortable habit.

Of trying to control, of being mistake averse and being a know-it-all. And by the way, that's okay. Control orientation, mistake aversion and knowing is fine for things you don't want to change that are well established, that are disciplined, like safety and financial reporting, that's fine. [00:41:00] But when you face change, you can't think in that way, which is most comfortable for us.

That's why most, most leaders tend to defer to being control oriented. Mistake averse, know-it-alls. What you have to do is be a better version of yourself in change, and so you have to recognize it. Take a breath and bring to it not a control mindset, but caring, connecting, enabling mindset. 'cause you can't control things that have changed.

Like when Zero was hit by Covid, all I could tell people was, do the best you can do. I, I couldn't tell 'em what to do every day. I couldn't tell 'em how to handle their jobs. I said, do your best and we're here to learn, here to support you and here to do what we can to help. And then making mistakes is gonna happen.

And then being a learn it all is much more valuable than being a know-it-all. So, because I've got that kind of framework for thinking. If I can pause in the moment and recognize what's going on, then I can manage myself to, [00:42:00] you know, react in a way that is gonna be more constructive.

Speaker: Yeah, fabulous. Be a learn it all, not a know it all.

I love that. That's a great takeaway for everyone. I'm gonna let you go shortly 'cause we've been chatting for quite some time. But before I do, I'm interested to know what is keeping you engaged and excited these days? What's coming next? You've just spent five years as CEO of Xero and no doubt you're enjoying a well earned rest.

You've written your book, what next?

Speaker 2: Yeah, Julie, just one thing. I should acknowledge that, i'd rather I learn it all over a know it all came from Satya Nadella at Microsoft, so I should attribute that to him. In terms of what's coming next for me, I look, doing stuff like this is fun, you know, sharing experiences speaking, writing coaching, you know.

Ad hoc advisory than being locked down full-time as a, a coach. [00:43:00] But a little bit of that is fun and I've got a couple of different ideas about getting the message out there, helping teams improve their performance. And I'm kind of exploring at the moment, but it's really just to continue to.

Share the message that, that it's all about people. You know, success and work and change is all about people. The technology doesn't innovate. People do, and maybe one day with AI, technology will, but whatever it does innovate, it'll be around the bounds of what humans have, have defined as needed, acceptable and good for, for us.

So. So that's really, you know, what I want. And I, I'd like to see us have better, healthier conversations about complex issues like de and I and you know, working from home. And so many of the conversations we have today are just extreme versus extreme, and the sensible middle ground doesn't get the oxygen it needs.

Mm. So a little bit shipping in there where I can is really what [00:44:00] I, I hope to do.

Speaker: What is your take on the work from home situation? If I can digress.

Speaker 2: At least we're talking about what makes for a productive work environment, but we're missing the point.

It's not where our people physically are as much as are they clear? Are they aligned? Are they well managed? Do they get honest feedback? Do they work in an organisation that cares about them? Let's talk about that now. 'cause whether I'm here or I'm in the office, two days, three days, this, that, and the other.

That's interesting. And that does play a role, but it is not the defining factor. I mean, I haven't had an office, a dedicated office. I never had a dedicated office as CEO of Xero. Never, I got chucked outta meeting rooms the way everybody did. If I overstayed my welcome, you know that. So, you know, to me, and I, I used to travel 50% of the time before Covid, COVID [00:45:00] saved me from that.

But you know, I just think it's one of those things that then look, we think that everyone has voted and working from home or flexibility is here to stay because it is good. But it's not good to have your workers remote if they're not clear. They're not aligned, they're not well managed.

So it's all those other things that I think we should be talking about, and again, in the productivity debate that I think is gonna be much, much more focused over the next three to five years. I want to chime in there and talk about the role of management and how we can be better managed or need to be better managed if we're gonna be more productive.

The rubber hits the road on productivity in the workplace. Who's there, how they got there, what they're motivated and incented to do, how they're funded.

And how they're managed. So let's talk about how they're managed and where the rubber hits the road. Not the highfaluting debate about tax policy and this, that and the other. All of that's [00:46:00] important, but that it, it all lands in a workplace with a manager. So people, leadership and you know, you know this Julie 'cause you worked with me, but Society for Knowledge Economics, the agenda there, you know, I open up that stuff today and it's, nothing's changed in the 10 years since we closed that down.

We're still just as badly managed across workplaces. And productivity is still the big issue that it was then. So let's help Australian managers become great and that's something that we could do in a programmatic way. We need to change the mindset and the.

The whole thinking around management and management development and create a campaign to demonstrate what good, good workplaces are versus those that are poorly led and how, and help those who want to be

Speaker 5: better become better.

Feel like you've just written yourself a fabulous job description, Steve.

Speaker 6: Yeah, well if I'm if I'm [00:47:00] crazy enough, maybe

 

Speaker: Steve, thank you so, so much. It's been an absolute delight to catch up, but also just to talk all things leadership, change, people humanity, kindness, with the context of work you have been enormously generous in sharing your time and your wisdom today.

If people want to get a bit more of you, obviously, as I mentioned at the start, there's a fabulous book through shifts and shocks, lessons from the frontline of technology and change that I can't recommend highly enough. So jump onto Amazon or, or head to your bookstore. I gather you are still a speaker on the speaking circuit as well if people are interested in that kind of engagement with you?

Speaker 2: Yep. I'm working and have done for many years now through Saxton Speaker Bureau, so I do a bit of speaking here and there.

And also you can connect with me on LinkedIn. I have a website, steve venmos.com, so I [00:48:00] can fabulous look at that as well. We might put some more, you know, resources and stuff up there, but at the moment it's it's got some links and some information that could be helpful.

Speaker: Look, I really, really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today and to be on our podcast and sharing your insights. Best wishes for the next chapter and for you know, global change in the leadership stakes. I'm going to be watching with great interest.

Speaker 2: Thank you, Julie. It's been great to join you and great questions and great conversations.

So thanks for having me and all the best to you and good on you for what you are doing, and the great work you do, I know will help a lot of a lot of good organisations out there.

Speaker: That's our aim. Thanks, Steve.

Speaker 8: Thanks for listening to the Service Game podcast by onsomble. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe and write us a quick review. It helps us to reach more people, and we really appreciate your support. To [00:49:00] access our downloadable resources and tailored support options designed for nfps, head to onsomble.com au.

Or look us up on social media. You'll find all our links in the show notes for this episode. Chat next time.